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Hi everyone, I live in a large gaming Canadian gaming market. Specifically, Ontario. I have been a slot player for many years. I have always believed that bonus rounds were based on my choices. Many times I would pick a lousy bonus round and become very frustrated. My friend has recently been employed by Ontario Lottery and Gaming, the owner of all the casinos in the province, which primarily is the government of Ontario. During orientation, he was told how the machines work. He questioned how the bonus rounds operate and was told that all bonus rounds are predetermined. No matter what I pick, the results would always be the same. Just wondering if anyone out there knows for sure. I would really like to be enlightened.
Thanks.
Thanks.
rxwine
I can't answer this, because I don't know. But I have noticed on some machines that offer free spin choices for example
30 spins X1
15 spins X 2
5 spins X 6
(Iforget the exact combos) but anyway, I've noticed when you pick the 30 it will spin and spin and spin and you get not many hits. Spin the high multiplier, and amazingly you likely get one big hit out just 5 spins -- the end result seems to be the same most of the time between the options. So, on those I'd say it's predetermined
On the other hand, there are bonus rounds where you try to match identical symbols out of many choices, and until you get a matching pair, the bonus round doesn't start or award. Those, at least at the matching stage could go anywhere it seems. Although, it's almost always likely the best bonuses have the fewest matching symbols, so it's likely you won't hit the biggest one when you play.
30 spins X1
15 spins X 2
5 spins X 6
(Iforget the exact combos) but anyway, I've noticed when you pick the 30 it will spin and spin and spin and you get not many hits. Spin the high multiplier, and amazingly you likely get one big hit out just 5 spins -- the end result seems to be the same most of the time between the options. So, on those I'd say it's predetermined
On the other hand, there are bonus rounds where you try to match identical symbols out of many choices, and until you get a matching pair, the bonus round doesn't start or award. Those, at least at the matching stage could go anywhere it seems. Although, it's almost always likely the best bonuses have the fewest matching symbols, so it's likely you won't hit the biggest one when you play.
PaulEWog
I don't know what rules are in place in Ontario so this may or may not apply to you, but everything I've read over the past few years indicate that your selection does make a difference, provided you are playing on a 'Class III' machine which is what is used in Las Vegas and most other casino's. Some districts use 'Class II' machines which are more like bingo and are also referred to as 'Video Lottery Terminals' in which case the results is predetermined. In this article a Williams Gaming VP said this about the 'Jackpot Party' game:When Jackpot Party multi-tier progressive first started appearing in casinos in the Chicago area, Rob Bone, vice-president of marketing for WMS told me: 'Giving players a sense of control, and allowing them to determine what progressive they qualify for is a huge attribute of the game'.
'It is based purely upon what symbols and what presents the player picks to determine what progressive award they achieve,' he added.
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Other articles I've read have also stated this.
(Edited to add, since you state the employer is 'Ontario Lottery and Gaming' I'd guess there is a pretty good chance that the games are Class II, in which case your friend is correct and your selections make no difference.)
FarFromVegas
The Wizard answered that question in a video about slot machines he did for The American Casino Guide on YouTube. In Las Vegas, your choices do indeed make a difference, but I don't know about how they are programmed in Canada.How Slot Machines Work
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Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts. Preparing for a fight about your bad decision is not as smart as making a good decision.
Wizard
Administrator
MathExtremist (ME) would be perfect to address this. Unlike him, I have not worked directly for a slot maker. I can only go off of PARS sheets and what I've been told. That said, it is my understanding that in bonus rounds where to pick icons on the screen the player does indeed control his destiny. The game shuffles the prizes and you pick them, like on Deal or No Deal. It also may be that the game is continuously shuffling them until you do make a choice, much like the rest of the deck while the game is waiting for the player to discard. I'd be interested to hear what ME says on that.Administrator
Even if the players win is predetermined, the PARS sheets I've seen indicate that every prize has equal odds. So, mathematically, it wouldn't matter if the player had free will or not. All this is my answer for class III games. Class II slots (bingo based) would not allow for free will, because the outcome must be determined by the draw of the bingo balls.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Mosca
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Here in PA, on the un-predetermined machines the other choices are revealed. So if you're playing Fireball Frenzy and pick a Fireball, after your choice is revealed the other two options are also revealed. But on the 'Power-up Bonus' machines (there are several of those), whatever you pick, you never get to see what else might have happened with a different pick, leading me to believe that it wouldn't have made any difference.
MathExtremist
I'm not sure how the OLG does it. If the slots are centrally-determined virtual pull-tabs like they are in New York racinos or Washington tribal locations, then everything (not just the bonus round) is predetermined by the central computer managing the set of tickets. One thing you can ask your friend is whether the slot game gets its results from a remote server or whether it does a random determination within the machine. On the other hand, gaming regs usually don't address whether bonus round outcomes may be fully determined at the beginning of each play or whether the player's interaction must have something to do with it. There are 3 or 4 different ways to handle it, but basically all of them are mathematically equivalent. For example, a 12-spot pick-until-pop bonus can be evaluated by the average total value before 'collect' under random picking, or by a predetermined number of picks to reveal. It's actually easier from a coding standpoint to do the random method.'In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice.' -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Wizard
Administrator
Based on my 13 years of answering questions from gamblers, I can tell you that most slot players are not satisfied with the 'it doesn't matter,' or 'it can happen different ways' answer. Same as for video poker. It is true that it doesn't matter mathematically, but the players truly want to know if they are they are in control of their own destiny. Trust me, I've been asked this question for 13 years. I would love to have somebody say, 'I program these games for company X and here is how we do it..' The WMS quote seems to answer the question for WMS, but I'd love to hear from IGT, Ballys, Aristrocrat, or anybody else.Administrator
Also, as was mentioned, sometimes the games show you what was behind the unchosen prizes. I would call it lying if that information was not truthful. Maybe there isn't a regulation against it, but I would call it dishonest, at the least.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
boymimbo
I have some knowledge of OLG's operations, but more from a 30,000 foot level. Their slots are Class III and do not operate any differently than any other Class III game. If the player isn't experiencing good bonus rounds, the player has to remember that bonus rounds are highly volatile. As well, the payouts on these games might be set in general to be low. OLG's payback on slot machines is not atypical from other jurisdictions.
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MathExtremist
I have some knowledge of OLG's operations, but more from a 30,000 foot level.
Their slots are Class III and do not operate any differently than any other Class III game.
I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, but just to be clear, Class III is an IGRA designation that's related to what's allowed/not-allowed in tribal locations without a state-tribal compact. Class III means anything that's not Class II or Class I, so unless a gaming machine is actually bingo-based, it's Class III even if it's centrally-determined. E.g. New York racino machines would still be Class III, but it doesn't matter because the racino isn't on tribal land, and it's state statutes and not the IGRA that controls there.
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There have been some interesting court decisions on what is or isn't Class II. See Cabazon v NIGC: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=14878425114969219817Play Fireball Frenzy Slot Machine
'In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice.' -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563